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Yang Rui: Welcome to Dialogue, gentlemen! Well President-elect Donald Trump in United States talks mad about how to reject the immigrants andrejecting TPP, as an example, is a hallmark of his campaign slogan, which is anti-globalization. At the same time, in your book, TheShared Society, you discuss at great length the virtues and advantages of having an inclusive society. Do you see contrasts, very sharp contrasts,between the notions of President-elect Donald and you, what do you advocate?
Alejandro Toledo: We are different.Origin we look different. But we have to go inside and live in this world belongs to all of us.
Yang Rui: You mean the version of President-electDonald Trump is a wall along the border with Mexico won't come to any avail. He will be a futile attempt to build the physical wall that separate Mexico from other parts of NAFTA?
Alejandro Toledo: I can assure you that that would never happen.
Yang Rui: At the same time, we have established the Shanghai Cooperation Organization back in the year 2001, exactly the same year he got elected as President of Peru. Now this SCO is meant to be an integralpart of the Euro-Asian Economic Union or what we call the Belt and Road Initiative. What do you think of the momentum of SCO and as the Belt and Road Initiative in contrast against the anti-globalization trend that President-elect Donald Trump represents?
Djoomart Otorbaev: What indeed President-electclaimed in his campaign, he says he doesn't like integration, he doesn't like NAFTA, he doesn't like other institutions. But at the same time, we had asummit of Shanghai Cooperation Organization where two very big Asian countries were accepted as full members, India, Pakistan. There were othercountries to follow. Thus it created huge Euro-Asian security cooperation organization. And what is peculiar and what is remarkable for us, we are justin the middle of this huge conglomerate, central Asian just will be in thecenter. So we will be going back to the old Silk Road glory times when we earned our wealth and our prosperity, education, other scientific achievements through being transit, and we are looking forward for the transit region for major Euro-Asian continents.
Yang Rui: Mr. Donald Trump seems to, he wants to putAmerica first, ahead of globalization and TPP and NAFTA. But all developing countries seem to be enjoying the dividend of the globalization. Do you think,there are, you know, the centrifugal forces at loggerheads? And how can China help reconcile different forces? How can China persist itself in the year of either deep-globalization, re-globalization or anti-globalization?
Hu Biliang: I think, you know, if we look at the factthat China is a beneficiary of globalization, and many others as well. For thedeep-globalization, for the open-economy or the shared economy, even the globally shared economy, if you look at the fact in China before the Reform, China was very poor. Only in a little bit more than 30 years, China got a lot of wealth. If you've been looking at the history, not only China, globalization brings a lot of wealth for many countries. Actually, America is the result of the globalization. If there's no globalization, then America will not be existing, right? It benefits a lot from international trade with othercountries, with UK, with European countries before. So I think Chinais very clear now, we go further, based on my understanding, we go further, to continually benefit from globalization process and push forward the process.
Yang Rui: There's no doubt that China will stand forbenefits of globalization as we are one of the biggest beneficiaries of the existing world economic order. However, despite the theories is built between President-elect Donald Trump and Out-going president Barack Obama,there's one thing that they share, that is the writing of rules, by Americans, not by China. And President Obama says that if there's one countrythat writes the rules for the world trade, it should be the United States ofAmerica, not China. What do you think of this political overtone forthe social power in the wake of the Cold War?
Alejandro Toledo: My friend, you know the United Statesis a very strong, powerful country. It is very respectful as a nation.
Yang Rui: You mean China or the United States?
Alejandro Toledo: United States. China is a country that is thesecond biggest economy of the world, 1.3 billion people, a large market, themain investor in Latin America, the largest trade partner of the whole 600 million Latin-Americans.
Yang Rui: Because we are the biggest trading power in the world.
Alejandro Toledo: You are. And you are on a process of changing also.
Yang Rui: Then, are we a threat?
Alejandro Toledo: No. To the contrary, that is the whole thingabout shared society. It is our responsibility, not only with today'sgeneration, but with the future generations to construct a more shared society,to lead an institute that is now called Emerging Markets Institute, where Africa,some countries of Asian and Latin-America included.
Yang Rui: Professor Hu, are you ready to writethe rules for the emerging markets, and are you going to put yourself on loggerheads with...
Hu Biliang: If I directly answeryour question, I think of working together. Nobody writes rules for others.We're discussing together, you know, we make the rules together. Writing rules for others, maybe true in a short period of time, but not forever. If you look at the history, the US, the raise of the US, is only the phenomenon for one century, you know, the 20th century, so...
Yang Rui: President Obama says the United Statesstands right to lead the world for another century, another 100 years. I mean,where does the confidence come from? Soft power, economic muscles, militarypower, military industrial complex, human rights, where does it come from?
Alejandro Toledo: I think that the United States fortunately has a strong democratic constitution that would not allow President-electDonald Trump to do what he said he would do. Secondly, now holdon, nobody, no country has the right to write the rules of the world.Not for a big country like China, not for a tiny country as Sudan. I would notlet anyone to write the rules for my country Peru nor Latin-America.I revoke myself. Mr. Trump has forgot something, that the United Statesis the result of a massive different migrants that came from different times. And with all due respect, his family comes from Scotland. He'salso the result of migrants. And when they came to the United States, to America, there were some indigenous people who belonged to that. Now they are in reservations that only allow them to play casino and drink alcohol. Now hold on, I come from an indigenous countryand with all due respect, I'm the first indigenous president who was democratic elected in 500 years in Latin America. I'm not going to let anyone to displace my root, my sense of burdens. Now the world has opened up. It belongs toall of us, and need you to take care of it, not only for us, but the responsibilities to reshape the life profile of our children's, and the children of our children. But we have to do it together. This is not the time to break connectivity, this is not the time to withdraw or to be protectionist.This is the time to work together, to dialogue. Confrontation, watch it. One ofthe worst enemy is that a society or its leaders to have a big ego. The world needs more sharing.
Yang Rui:The central Asian, among all others, this region is characterized with diversity and different levels of economic development, and at the same time, President Toledo talks about shared society. To what degree, do you think we can find something to piece it, to put the countries’different economies together?
Djoomart Otorbaev: Let me make a statement that those who livingin so-called poor landlocked countries, without access to the sea, feel in a necessity of cooperation even deeper than others. It's old saying that, if you want to please the world, then you have the access to sea, just jump into aboat. In Latin countries, you have to talk to your neighbor, if you want to go,or you want to make a deal, you have to ask permission, or whatever agreement with the neighbor. So you are really much more thirsty for cooperation than maybe others. Why in the landlocked countries only 5% of human population's living? Because it's very difficult to make business, to make trades, to be richer,to be prosperous. And because, of course, for example, of transportation,and landlocked countries three times as more expensive as via sea. Socentral Asia must be central through being efficient as transit.
Yang Rui: Professor Hu, do you think along witheconomy expansion of China comes the growing sense of international responsibility, at the same time, we face serious social division as to whether we should go international withthe more of our precious foreign exchange reserve because weafter all have 70-80 million people living under property line, they are wrestling with the basic needs of bread and butter. So it's political incorrect to boast of, you know, to talk smug about international responsibility for some of the netizens. And they use social mediato voice their complaints about the poor social security programme, notequal access to education, to say nothing of a free access to medicare.What do you think the conflicts here?
Hu Biliang: I think any country needs to take theresponsibilities from both sides. The first is to take responsibilities for its people, if we look at the issue domestically, right? To improve their livelihoods, to improve their education, health care, social security as youjust mentioned. Now is the open age, China now is the second largest economy inthe world, China has to going global, it's the megatrend. Therefore, China hasto also take responsibilities globally. I mean to say, China has to take some international responsibilities. China is now working very hard to the two directions,they are not in contradiction with each other, but they're supporting eachother. Yes, the world is now benefitting more and more from China’s contribution on one hand; on the other hand, China also benefits more from its integration into the global system through gaining more investment opportunities,trade opportunities worldwide, then we can do our jobs better at home in the end.
Yang Rui: There's no question about the momentum of out bump capital flight on the backup to Belt and Road Initiative, whichis ambitious blueprint of President Xi Jinping. However, whatever we do,whatever we say, we would be built as increasingly assertive, not only in South China Sea, but perhaps in building Confucius Institute to export Chinese culture. So China is viewed as a threat to the rest of the world by some of the people who are skeptical about the global implications of China's global expansion. You're watching Dialogue with former President of Peru,Alejandro Toledo, and former Prime Minister of Kyrgyzstan, Djoomart Otorbaev,and the Dean of Emerging Markets Institute at Beijing Normal University,Professor Hu Biliang. We'll come back to address these issues, please stay withus.
Yang Rui:Welcome back. What do you think of the criticism against China's expansion? When we are ready to transform ourselves from a continental power to maritime power, the maritime dispute unlikely to occur and increasingly so, despite our vision that our Maritime Silk Road?
Alejandro Toledo: First of all, let me congratulate on the procedure you talked. Secondly, let me talk about, and answer your question directly. This is not a time a world to compete in a tournament of WorldCup Soccer; it’s the time of putting the team together in the world, what players, from China, from Africa, from Latin-America, from the States, with the sense of vision aspire about the future. It is not the time to play toys of ego troops, of who is the biggest, the more powerful. We have the responsibility to leave to our children a world that is livable, and every team, everyone counts. I'm not afraid about China's size's growing. I'm not afraid about doing trade. We are doing trade with China. As a President I've begun a free trade agreement with China in 2001, and was contracted with another my successor. No problem.
Yang Rui: Perhaps we are going a little bit too far in addressing geopolitical rivalry between major powers in the age of power politics. Let's come back to examine what you mean by having a shared society in Peru and indeed other neighboring countries in Latin-America, because this isthe central piece of your book and this is also the center piece of Emerging Markets Institute of Beijing Normal University. What do you mean by having a sustainable prosperity of a shared society?
Alejandro Toledo: Shared society means that connectivity has brought us closer together. Despite our cultural differences that we should respect, despite our origins. But we share the responsibility of prosperity, of reaching sustain and sustainable rates ofeconomic growth. But with respective, the economic growth is a mean not an end.The benefits of economic growth we need to share, to eliminate exclusion,poverty, inequality, discrimination between men and women, or indigenous,independent of where you were born. Human rights, freedom of the press, has no nationality.And this is not the time to divide, this is the time to have the courage to confront shared challenges, to live a livable world, to the future generations.We've come from different cultures. But we share it, agreeing for thefuture with eyes open.
Yang Rui: But I'm afraid all politics are local. You have to talk with the local electorate about shared society. For those guys,who live in under developed society or areas, it's a bit a luxury to talk about shared society, when most of them are still struggling for the basic matter of bread and butter. They are still wrestling with the idea of having the basic decency of education. They don't have actually equal access to education or medicare. So it's therefore more of a political will for you guys who talk with a cigar, wine, whisky in a club. For these poor guys, the under privileged, they would ask, "Hey, come on, give me a break”. What doyou mean by shared economy?
Alejandro Toledo: With all due respect, I do come from extreme extreme extreme poverty. So I don't smoke the big cigars, neither do I condemn those who do it. But I'm concerned to share the wealth, the economic growth. I received my economy in Peru minus 3%, in 2001. When I concluded in 2006, I letthe economy grow at 7.5%. Well, you can google me, you can find that that'snot my main accomplishment. I want that the benefits of that economy growth,growth to have portable water, sanitation, infrastructure and quality of education.
Yang Rui: At the same time, do you think having an olive shaped society which is characterized with accessible, middle class would be the basic conditions for having a shared society. Will you have the bigincome discrepancy? Will you have a series of poverty-stricken populationin underdeveloped areas, most of the countries in the Belt and Road areas? Soit's therefore a luxury to talk about the shared economy. It remains the main concern, don't you think so, Professor Hu?
Hu Biliang: You know, shared society as the President mentioned that we need to share the responsibilities. Since you pointed out some of the problems, this is why we need to share the responsibilities, this is very important. What is more important is that we needto share the results, share the benefits, share the achievements with all the people, not only part of the people benefit from the good result we achieved.If we don't share the results and achievements with the poor people, they get angry,and the society is not shared, but divided, and this kind of development model,development approach, will not be sustainable.
Yang Rui: I'm afraid that's a subject of matter for those who have cigars in the club in the European Union, talking smart about giving funds and sponsorship to low line in island countries in the Pacific Ocean, when those guys are wrestling with painful idea of having climate change, the rise of sea levels one day, and they are going to become submerged in sea waters, and yet the funds still come very late and maybe a luxury for all of the funds to be handed over to the needed.
Djoomart Otorbaev: Maybe all actions started this idea. So what we try to achieve to Emerging Markets Institute is that to get together, people with different cultures, back grounds, knowledge,education, and to advise what human society should do next, from idea to implementation. I want to underline one important thing. It has to be efficient enough, to broadcast our ideas to the decision makers. We are in China, and we want to give policy advise to Chinese government, what to do in order to make better equality. One of the main challenges of the modern world is inequality.But they don't want only to talk, this is the difference, they don't want only to write the books, but from these books, they start actions. And China as an economic No. 1 within short, should realize and be prepared to take responsibility to make more fair society, more shared society. All countries around China also will be doing it. One Belt One Road is not only tunnels,roads, energy, or communication, but it’s more a philosophy of sharing ideas and these ideas to bring more to the more fair condition.
Yang Rui: But with the impact of Brexit, of the rise of Donald Trump, which rejects globalization and the rise of a far right movement in continental Europe and the politicians who represent their right wing political forces would reject immigration, citing visual terrorism as anexcuse, to lay ground work for demonizing the Schengen agreement. In thisage of skeptical scrutiny, I mean, how can you foresee a collective future of ashared society?
Alejandro Toledo: My friend, I decided to write this book, The Shared Society, a concentrated Latin America, by looking at the world,and look at 34 years from now. I want to share three things: the challenges that the world confronts today, the world, not only Peru and Latin America. Two, we need to share the actions that we have Emerging Markets Forum worldwide,and in China, there are more fertilized, under the leadership of professor Hu, Emerging Markets Institute. Three, we need to share what I have, I'm strong in, what they are strong in, we can sell minerals to China, gold, silver, coco,oil, fishmeal, but I don't want to be a slave of the fluctuations of theprices of the international market of our commodities. So I want to diversify,I would want to be independent from external factors that I do not control which are the changes of the prices of the commodities.
Yang Rui: Thank you very much, President Toledo.That's basically a question of "live and let live" by the end ofthe day. Thank you for watching. I'll see you next time, goodbye!
Transcribe of Dialogue fromCCTV.com
12/14/2016 Emerging Markets
